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GameSpot's Top Ten NES Games

by Edith Wharton

Its summer.. and the only gaming going on right now is PokeMonday, so here's some filler! GameSpot held a little poll to see what the best games for the NES were. Here's the article with Reader comments on each game. From the responses I've read, some people find the lack of Kid Icarus and River City Ransom disturbing.

10. Ninja Gaiden
9. Duck Hunt
8. Metroid
7. Mega Man 2
6. Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!
5. Contra
4. Final Fantasy
3. Super Mario Bros.
2. The Legend of Zelda
AND NUMER ONE IS....

1. Super Mario Bros. 3

Agree? Disagree?

Comments

Submitted by TC Bad driver on Mon, 06/19/2006 - 12:56pm

I dont really know much about those thigs 2 young. Eli can u give me a little more information on the scoring and clan system for next season as preason is in about a month.
For a clan event at the end of each tourtament maybe a team suprise round or something.since u have 6 man clans top4 get in only top4 would play.
For example your team vs. bots or 2 teams of 2 facing off in a mystery game. Or accumaltive score from the tourney.
Also for preason. How is commentarey trouts going to work and also will their be prizes because prizes were not mentioned in the brochere i got today when i signed up for the teen reading program.
Also one idea for scoring then i will shut up. I think elimination rounds should be worth more than qualifaction round. For example a first in qual round might be 100 pts. first in second round might be 150pts. etc.

Okay shut up time

One more thing if u go to the video page ejk set up scroll down and watch this guy beat supermario64 in 16 minutes. It is amzing. He uses a few exploits but can complete levels using amazing things. Watch at least some of it.

NOw shut up time
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

"If you don't offer them something that has value to them now, you're going to be irrelevant to them for the rest of their lives. It's not a risk we can afford to take."
Eli

Submitted by omokusaki on Mon, 06/19/2006 - 12:56pm

While I do agree that every game on the above list is great, I'm a little curious as to why Gamespot chose to list two Super Mario Bros. games instead of putting something else like Castlevania in.

I mean, SMB is good, but SMB3 takes the same concepts and improves on them so much, the original shouldn't even be on the list.

I just took a look at the Summer "Reading" list of possible activities and I figured out that I can once again complete the Summer "Reading" program without ever touching a book, magazine, or any other device whose only method of communication is the written word and an occasional still image. It's not that I'm entirely against this, but I am against the name of the program being "Summer Reading."
I'm still going to read over the summer, but it is a far greater accomplishment for me to not read for the Summer "Reading" program. Well there's my rant about that.

"TORTURIS EXUVIAS EUNT"

Submitted by Edith Wharton on Wed, 06/21/2006 - 8:41am

I understand your point of view but remember.. everytime you read 600 pages, you get another chance to win prizes. Also remember that even if you do a bunch of activities that don't involve "books," you still win an actual book. Or manga. Either way, its implied that reading is a reward all by itself, and the summer reading game should be a nice incentive.

That is true. I personally do read over the summer, but I try as hard as I can not to read for the Summer Reading program because I find it ironic to participate in a Summer Reading program without reading.

"TORTURIS EXUVIAS EUNT"

Being a rebel is fun. Sticking it to the man u know(u remember the 70's :) and in this case the summer reading program is the man so we are sticking it to the man by reading over summer but completing the "reading program" by not reading.

Ok i will stop reliving the 70's. I actually read for the summer reading program, But the summer reading program if i am not msitaken almost all of it u can do of the library and some things u have to go to the library. Oh well still great prizes

My little cousins were playing MarioKart. one is a little prodgidy at marioKart. Well that might be an overstatement but he is about 5 and can compete and even win on 50 cc and stay in for the first 2 laps than fall out on 150 cc. Which in my opnon is pretty good for firs time ever playing games. The other 2 i will make no comments. Eli are the little kid tourneys more enjoyable to watch.....never mind

Also Eli if you could get the details out as soon as u can on scoring and the way the tourneys are gonna run that would be great for practicing and clan planning. Also can u keep season 2 stats up. And archive them somewhere so they can be acsessed or put combined them into season stats and career stats.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

"If you don't offer them something that has value to them now, you're going to be irrelevant to them for the rest of their lives. It's not a risk we can afford to take."
Eli

No I do not remember the 70s! (I'm not THAT old) But if you feel rebelious by doing all non-reading activities, then by all means fight the Man.. or Woman, as is the case in most libraries.

After Lizzy and I went to the library on Monday, her mom was like, "Who's Edith? Is she that lady with the gray hair?"
And I'm like, "Uh, NO." O_o

Don't worry... I don't think you're old. :D

ACtually i was more pointing out what my brother was trying to do. i dont read a lotl but a little.
The reason their are non reading activities is that almost 80% of those u can do at the library. But edith u would probally know the purpoose of non reading activities than i would

[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

hey wassup everybody big chi-chi in da house you kno yall probably don kno me but dats coo cause you kno if ya don kno Big Chi-chi den chi-chi don kno you is dat clear everybody cause if it not den you don't betta start reconginizing me as i represent my skills to yall
word.

Hey I can write with grammer when and if I choose to do so. I strongly belive that a person that writes like their souls tells them to that then that person is being true to thereself so if you want to critize my grammer have fun; but know that I am doing it out of truth to myself and all that I stand for.
So please (I mean this in the most respatable way possible) stay up out my bitness you dig?

If you don kno Big Chi-chi, Chi-chi don kno you

*checks hair* Nope. Not grey yet.

As to the purpose of non-reading activities.. the purpose of the non-reading activities on the Teen Summer Reading Game is to acknowledge that teens like to do more than just read books, make your summer vacation more enjoyable. Remember, the library not only supplies you with books, but also cds, dvds, magazines and programming.

being the tech guy i am(that was a joke) I jsut found the advanced match listings and have been searching for them for quite some time;:)
Big Chi-chi who r u and what games do u play and stuff .

first a all just call me chi-chi big chi-chi jus sound u kno kinda like im some famous dude or sometin lik tat ya dig?
i play b-ball most o da time evey once in a once ill go pla som foot baa ba ya no it get kinda ya kno boring
as fo ya kno stuff i jus ya kno hang wity my homes an all tat goo stuff
ya dig?
im also on aim alot i guess sorta
i jus be big chi chi92 o aim ya kno
If you don kno Big Chi-chi, Chi-chi don kno you

hey do you guys know what a good song is? well anyway i know a better one.
Wannabe by the spice girls It's like my favorite like ever
i mean i like i heart that song

holder of the 6168th post

wat r u talkin bout ma that crap is barey considered music you wany some real musuic try som KANYE WEST baby
man KANYE is da BEST ou tare man you beetta star recongnizen
KANYE ca he a tru broda
word.

If you don kno Big Chi-chi, Chi-chi don kno you

Chi Chi u realize u have made 6 posts in one day (i have made 3 though i guess...) and are really confusing do u even play MarioKart or melee not to be mean or anything. if u could just use a little better english.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

oh you meant like them video games
ya i play tose if or when i feels like it
and im not the best at math an stuff but i only count 5
If you don kno Big Chi-chi, Chi-chi don kno you

Wow. Just wow. I would like to thank "Big Chi-chi" for providing me with one of the greatest laughs I have had in a long time coming to this board. I find you incredibly hilarious, Chi-chi, and I'm sure you're even more entertaining in person. If you actually do ever come to one of the tournaments to "play tose if or when [you] feels like it", I have no doubt that you will be highly entertaining to observe.
---
"OK, next year we're going to change the tournament name from AADL-GT to AADL-G<strong>R</strong>... "Goat Rodeo!!!" - Eli <strong>
5000th comment poster!</strong>[gtlogo:VMC]

pre season is in a month yeah! WHat are prizes going to be for pre-season throughout the whole season? I started posting again i took a few weeks off now ill go back to a post or so everyday unless conversation dies down. Elsewise id like to talk about playing tose games.

[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

I'll have a post up in the next two weeks with details about next season, the season 2 DVD, and much, much more. In the meantime, I've been playing lots of brain age and big brain academy for the DS. A big brain academy tournament would be awesome, I think.

Welcome Chi Chi. Hope to see all you guys at the preseason event July 22... that's just around the corner...

I also have a suggestion for a possible tournament style to be used... well, whenever, really. It would only really work for one-on-one competitions, such as Melee. It's the style of tournament that's used by the World Cup (of soccer, in case any of you are that American-ized). I'll explain more tomorrow for those of you who don't know (or understand) how it works, but trust me, it's a good one.
---
"OK, next year we're going to change the tournament name from AADL-GT to AADL-G<strong>R</strong>... "Goat Rodeo!!!" - Eli <strong>
5000th comment poster!</strong>[gtlogo:VMC]

I don't know if this has already been suggested or not, but I think that we should implement a ranking system which is similar to the one used for chess rankings. If you beat a person with a higher rank than yourself, you get far more points than beating someone who has a lower rank than yourself. This way people who join the season part way through can still do well in the rankings.

"TORTURIS EXUVIAS EUNT"

Submitted by Big Chi-chi on Sat, 06/24/2006 - 10:02am

hey man the world cup is a heat?
i jus tougt dat it was ya kno actully a ya kno a cup
ya dig?

If you don kno Big Chi-chi, Chi-chi don kno you

r u talking about usind the excact format of the world cup i see pluses and minsuses. Plus. It would be easy to scale opponents for example U.S. got knocked out in one of the best brackets in the world cup.
So tom ur idea has some strong points but would need a little bit of editing. Maybe you start in a bracket of 8 people and u have 8 total(4 each) 4 ffa matches. also ur format would work well in a team format. Recieve 3 quals than move on into your bracket based on your performance with 4 different teams(number could vary) where u have a quick round robin. Than the top2 teams even 1 moves on into single eliminiation than round robin for top 4.Tie breaker would be heaed to head competion(already been played)
I think since their will be money distrubuted at each event their shouldn't be a sudden death format for the finals. Since you want to find the true champion one match(especially in MarioKArt wont determine that. Maye have the top 8 race 2or 3 times and add up points.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

Two things:

First of all, Bad Driver don't complain about other's spelling and grammar if your own is subpar.

Secondly, Eli has already said that he wants a final round or match because it is more exciting. The Super Bowl might be more fair if it were best of five, but I don't think it would have near the excitement as it does now.

"TORTURIS EXUVIAS EUNT"

Well yes, if we were to use the World Cup format, I was kind of already assuming that we would have ranked people based on earlier performance or something to make sure that the brackets were as evenly put together as possible.

Also, on a side note, the US Soccer team's performance has nothing to do with the bracket they were in, it has everything to do with how they played, and how they were coached, but that's a whole different topic for a whole different time.
---
"OK, next year we're going to change the tournament name from AADL-GT to AADL-G<strong>R</strong>... "Goat Rodeo!!!" - Eli <strong>
5000th comment poster!</strong>[gtlogo:VMC]

About my grammar i will try to make it a little better up there i was kind of in a rush so thats why it looked like that.
This is the Great Bad driver's idea for the way the tourtament should be run. All this should be adjusted because of number people at each tourtament. Also Eli you said you would have the post up in 2 weeks so this might change a little depending on clan innvolment.
Single player Melee.3 qualifaction matches top 32 move on. 2 more matches among top 32 top 16 move on into seeded tourney seeds based on 5 previous matches(moving on would pretain to just the previous 2) When down to final 4 1 would hypethitically play 4 and 2 play 3 than 1 would play 2(supposing top seed always wins) And 3 would play 4 if 4 won than 4 would play 2. If 3 won the places would already be in place beccause 3 has already lost to 2. If #1 lost to #2 than 1 would play 3 if 3 hypethiticially won. Or you could do a round robin with the final four. I wouldn't reccemond Having 1 play 4 and 2 play 3 than 1 play 2 and 3 play 4 because 4 could easily be second best and get third.
Team melee. Double eliminiation. IN the first round you are randomly paired with another team. Than if you won next round you would play someone with your record(win you are 1-0 would play another 1-0) And that goes on until you reach the final four. than you might have varying records. (5-0,4-1,3-1,4-1)now no one is undefeated. Lets say 5-0 played 3-1 last round than 5-0 now has to play someone new. 4-1's are equally matched so they couldn't play eachother. So you might want to do a round robin or something along those lines when you are done to not many people or give everyone a fresh start and say double from here on out.
Single player MarioKart. 2 or 3 wualifaction(depending on time) top 32 move on. Than 2 more races top 16 move on. 2 more for each top 8 move on. Maybe 2 or 3 races and declare winner by ranking out of those 2 or 3(could do sudden death because no luck could get you through 3 rounds but 2 matches would do better finding the true winner)
Also if their is anyway for aualifaction stages i would ban a few of the longer courses to make things go faster and open those back up in the round of 32 because those people are more experienced and wouldn't take all day. As if you have 2 people on rainbow road and neither no what they are doing and they take 5 or 7 minutes that would substancially slow down the event. I dont think banning stages in Kart is possible i jsut remember talking to a teen service person (or something like that not quite sure of the title) And she said at the junior tourneys they banned rainbow road because it would take too long.
CO-op MarioKart. After a little research their was between 30-40 teams in the co-op events. That is the smallest and you can have 16 teams at once which is nearly half the total field. 3 qualifaction matches.top 16 teams move on for 3 more races and than race of 8 is 2 races(this could all change since this might be the last event you could make it longer or shorter)
Clan play is going to become more important this season. So team play should become more important obviously since clan play will be more important.
To the scoring system quickly. I don't think it is fair that for team scoring you only recieve half points i understand for clan scoring it should only be 500 but both players shouldn't only recieve 250 each the should both recieve 500 and the clan will reacieve 500. This seems fair because team events take as much if not more skill for example. My brother and Bowser(i think that is what he is going by now he got third in first tourney) They won team melee or reached semis 2 times and almost never lost any lifes. They are not the best melee players on the circut but learned to play as a team therefore they could beat 2 stars on a team who play as individuals. When i was with my brother we got third. That was because i made one bad jump and i am not near to one of the best melee players,but as a team we were able to rise near the top and inCo-op we have got 3 first and a second in 6 tourtaments. Although TP2 is on the higher level of MarioKart players and i might be somewhere in the upper midle or something like that. yet someone who won Single player Kaet once recieved as many points as me and my bro did for winning Twice this hardly seems fair.
O.K. sorry for rambling on ,but that is a combination of 2 or 3 posts i have tried to make. If you could respond with your ideas because this abviously isnt a full proof plan
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

I've watched a little kids tournament. The way they "ban" a course is by not selecting "all courses" in the menu but by selecting a single cup. So they never put it on special cup unless they're in the finals.

It should be pointed out Bad Driver that you have a slight bias in the point distribution system that you have suggested considering that you have earned most of your points from co-op events. You have earned about 1/3 of your total points from winning team events.

The reason that the points should be split is because, in Mario Kart co-op at least, both players don't need to be great. It is somewhat unfair for someone who is horrible at a game to win just because his friend is driving. Also mentioning that Bowser and I can win as a team and that you and I also did well even though, in your words, "i am not near to one of the best melee players," disproves your point.

After learning a little bit more about it, I agree with Tom that the tournament could work well as a World Cup style tournament. Obviously there would have to be a few modifications to the system, but the concept is excellent.

"TORTURIS EXUVIAS EUNT"

There is also a point bais towards melee because players are able to receive more matchs in melee than MK. The point system is far from perfect and I think it may need to be reveiwed.

Thank You Duck. Tp2 team events take probally more skill becase you see the same teams consistently finishing on top which means their is less luck innvoled. Their is no reason to make a single player event worth twice as much and Duck your point about Kart and melee is very true as well and in team melee the way it is structued changes often but for the most part is single elimniation or in round 3 get 2 qualifaction than top32 than single elimination. 100 points for a first=50 points for beating one opponent as in Mario Kart if you beat one opponent i team you get 5 points that doesn't seem very fair at all that someone who beats one gets the same as some one who beats 7.
TP2 i am far from the top in melee and you are near the middle of the best people I am refering to only the AADl-GT sanctioned tourtaments not the open melee tourtaments i am not an expert in your statistical records.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

Submitted by TurtlePerson2 (not verified) on Thu, 06/29/2006 - 9:51am

I have heard a rumor that there will be a clan event at every tournament. If this rumor is true here is my suggestion for what should be done in order to add an interesting twist. I suggest that we allow the top clan to choose two teams of two from within their clan and those two teams play different games. For example, you choose a Mario Kart team and a Melee team (if those are the games played during the clan battle). The two teams compete with teams from other clans, but the Mario Kart team will only play Mario Kart and the Melee team will only play Melee. Then the teams who accumulate the most points in those matches will play each other in something. I like the idea of a Mario Kart battle because it allows some teamwork and cooperation.

Well there's my suggestion, but this is only if there is a clan event at every tournament.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

"TORTURIS EXUVIAS EUNT"

Submitted by TC Bad driver on Thu, 06/29/2006 - 10:06am

My idea about the clan event vaires a little(if their is a clan event) The top 4 clans in that tourtament should get into this hypetitical round. Than their is some sort of team clan event maybe a suprise round were the 4 top scores(not all clans will have 6 members present so only having 4 is reaonable and maybe subsitution but a 3 man clan won't make it to that round often) play 4 bots so it could be a team vs. computer and than the top 2 face off in melee or MarioKart or another suprise round game. Or u could do a knock out alternationg every tourney where one melee is qualifaction and MarioKart is knockout than Mariokart is qualifaction melee is knockout and the clan with the best over all score wins.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

You are right that there were probably a lot of people who didn't come twice, but I think you are assuming the worst. There are always people who lose their accounts and create new ones. There are people who move away and there are people who were in town visiting relatives and decided to come to one tournament.

I won't disagree with you that there are a group of people who have come and didn't enjoy themselves.

"TORTURIS EXUVIAS EUNT"

Submitted by Sir Ducksalot on Thu, 06/29/2006 - 1:15pm

I believe this "Clan Event" is just another term for the surprise round. Because the Surprise round now has no prizes I think they are making it clans only so that clans have a larger variation of points.
[gtlogo:VMC]

Yes i probally was assuming the worst, but in my first tourtamen i probally had 7 races that is about 20 minutes out of 4 hours if i wasn't with my brother i probally would have never come in the first place and never come in the first place i do think these tourtamnents have a very good social atmasphere.
No prizes for clan play clan play loses a lot of value if their is only the December tourtament. An example is turtle clan no members came to December so all our clan play was in vein. Also I think this blog isn't posting on by more tha 10 different people. I am on a posting binge right now because i have nothing better to do and that people aren't talking about un realated video game topics but about the tourtaments
On a seperate note the bookmobile is shuting down i've never been there but im sure some people are in tradgic loss.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

Last year clan play only mattered for one tourtaments. Anyone really could qualify for the clan cup the clan cup system was good with the seeding,but a clan event with no prizes seems useless.
Eli is the clan event at July 23rd or July 22nd because in your previos post you said 22nd i have the 23rd which is right?
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

True but i will wait till he gives more details on things because he could already have ideas in stone and filling up his E-mail with dumb ideas wouldn't be supoer nice
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

This is all pretty much 100% related to the topic, I would say.

I'm the Ownerer or whatever. Not usually the name I use. My tag is -XO- for most games. Anyways, I think there are a few problems with the current Smash format. I don't see why the rulesets have to be different from what MLGs use. When you play a game of baseball, do you generally use made-up rules, or do you use the rules that the MLB uses? Most people probably use regular rules. If you guys didn't know, MLG's website is www.mlgpro.com they use a relatively well liked ruleset for smash tournaments of about the same size (100-200 people). I think that if we're going to run gaming tournaments we might as well use good rulesets. Double Dash isn't a particularly competitive game, as there is a lot of luck involved (items without preset outcomes or something to make it equal opportunity for both players). So I don't have anything to comment on its ruleset. I like the fact that you're running the tournaments in the first place, so don't feel like I'm bashing anyone or anything.

Also, I've heard people say that items are more fair, or something to that effect, before. I say that they are less fair because they spawn at random places and intervals, introducing another factor of luck into the game. There are also stages with problems like this such as Flatzone due to the falling hammers, PokeFloats because of the falling through air balloons (which I can demonstrate), and Icicle Mountain because it puts characters that can't keep up with the rise/fall pace at a horrible disadvantage, as well as the animals that run around. MLG has a good ruleset, I recommend taking a look at it. I'd also like to hear an argument other than "Real men play with items" as I heard someone previously say. Keep in mind that girls play games too, even if they're in the minority :P.

I feel that at least, you should give the players an option of switching between the two rulesets (MLG or modified). As for the argument that it puts those players on a "different playing field", I disagree. The game is supposed to come down to the most skilled player winning. If both players agree, then I don't see why it's a different playing field. They can choose to decide the outcome on their own terms; an MLG ruleset is only an option. And if you say they shouldn't be allowed to decide the outcome on their own terms, there's no way you can stop them. If I play Uncle Meat and I know I can win, it doesn't change the fact that I can intentionally lose.

Also, notice that the players that play without items on (myself, Uncle Meat, and Piratey_Critter/Lucky_Fetus) are significantly better at the game in 1v1 than the people who play with them on. Basically, I'm pointing out that playing without items forces players to get better at the game to win, while items lead nowhere. Having 4 players on the screen at one time allows for them to gang up, which is unfair (and which I've had happen to me on more than one occasion).
As for teams, I have less of an objection (besides the items and stages, of course). I don't mind where you put the friendly fire, although most tournaments have it on. Players should be given the option, just as they should in 1v1.

Though I'd like to mention again how great it is that we have something like this in the first place. I'm just suggesting ways to make it even better :D

EDIT: I noticed you can rent the basement (of the library) for a day for 125 dollars. I'm looking for a venue to hold a tournament (it'd have an MLGish ruleset...and an entrance fee...think 10 bucks or something). If you have any ideas, say something, 'cause I don't know where to start. I think Piratey got bored of this game, and I can't go to the tournament on the 23rd/22nd, because I'll be out of town. (You COULD just early it up a week though :] just kidding). Anyways, I'll be back for August, so I'll see you there.

"If I play Uncle Meat and I know I can win, it doesn't change the fact that I can intentionally lose."

You sohuld change Uncle Meat to MDidget =P =P =P

Anyway, that'd be sweet if you rented out the basement for a melee tourney

No replies to my ideas, though =/ And yeah, sandbagging = win. I don't like uselessly wearing out my fingers, so I don't usually try against uhh...noobs lol. I mean...you did get 4 stocked with me at like 60% when I tried. =)

And yeah, if anybody knows ANY venue for these kinds of things, let me know. And also about my "change the ruleset" idea.

"I say that they are less fair because they spawn at random places and intervals" I'd like to point out that this is a false statement. I have been able to accuately predict the spawning of items for some time. They do not just come when they please they are on a consistent timer and their placement patterns can be known with just a little mapping effort. I have commonily broken away from combat in order to acquire an item that I know just spawned. I find items provide greater character balance. Giving lower tier members a more balanced playing field vs. characters like sheik. Your are stating that playing without items makes you better at playing without items against someone who plays with items. That's like saying playing a 2d fighter makes you better than someone who plays a 3d fighter game who decided to stupe down to 2d. Also playing without items makes it less interesting not as much can happen when all you have is two player.

You should pay more attention because all 3 stages you mentioned have been removed from play making you argument invalid. Do you even know that we banned items and stages.

"Keep in mind that girls play games too, even if they're in the minority :P." and all the girls like items on.

[gtlogo:VMC]

"you did get 4 stocked with me at like 60% when I tried. =)"

I dont think you were trying, you were standing in a corner, shooting me, forcing me to approach from above so you could usmash or uair me to death proving i can only fight when you were playing agressivly (My Peach vs your Mario =P) and that i have horrible spacing =P

First off, the reason I mentioned www.mlgpro.com was because they listed ALL the stages I feel should be banned. Secondly, Duck, you need to know a little something about item spawns. After real research (since I'm doubting you've done any), it turns out that the item spawning isn't predictable as to which item it is. In addition, two players can stand next to an item spawn location, and get completely different items. What would you say if Sheik got the better item? That's pretty unfair if you ask me. Secondly, most low tier players like items off, since ninety percent of the time, they are slow themselves and the top tier (Fox, Captain Falcon, Sheik) player will get to the item first anyway. And the only reason you can run off and get the item is because you play 4 player, which is again, very unbalanced for the reason I stated.

"Your are stating that playing without items makes you better at playing without items against someone who plays with items. That's like saying playing a 2d fighter makes you better than someone who plays a 3d fighter game who decided to stupe down to 2d. Also playing without items makes it less interesting not as much can happen when all you have is two player."
The first half of what you said simply didn't make sense. In the future, I recommend that you use passable grammar. The issue in a tournament is to find the most skilled player in a game, not the luckiest.
"Makes it less interesting" - All I can say is that not everyone would agree. Secondly, it's pretty stupid when items make that big turnaround (bob-omb spawns next to someone one stock behind and he wins as a result) if the bob-omb hadn't spawned THERE the other player would've won. I think the REAL reason you guys play with items, if I may be so bold, is that you guys know you'd fail miserably in a tournament without items or FFA. Honestly, that's cool with me. I'm just saying that playing with items and FFA makes it less of a real competition. Secondly, one on one is the only way to decide which player is better. Three and four player are all unbalanced. Also, if you think I'm some sort of noob who can only play Fox and Falco, I'll play you all 26 characters in dittos. I have a feeling I'm going to win most of them.

As to "providing a more balanced playing field" that's simply false. It contributes to randomizing results, and that is it. Items have preset spawn points, but you can't know what is going to spawn. This is the reason why it randomizes things, and that is what you want to reduce in a tournament.

As for you, MDidget, you simply don't know what you're doing. Nothing can outcamp Peach, fool. You should've sat there and thrown turnips, if I'm spamming lasers. Turnips have actual knockback, forcing me to have to approach you. And I quote "I liked it when you played aggressively" -Gets shine -> Upsmashed- "Maybe not". Winning against Fox will require either quick thinking or chaingrabbing, neither of which you did.

Lastly, Sheik isn't that good. She used to be amazing, but nowadays everybody can DI F-tilt, so it's not that big a deal.

EDIT: ""Keep in mind that girls play games too, even if they're in the minority :P." and all the girls like items on."
That's only in Ann Arbor. Sorry to break it to you, but I'm one of the two mediocre players in Ann Arbor (because I'm pretty average as far as REAL smashers go), along with Piratey_Critter. Everybody else in Ann Arbor sucks, straight out. If anybody can actually make an argument about items and stages using some logic other than "they have preset times and locations" which I've shown meaningless because the item itself is the most important thing, go ahead and try.

"I have commonily broken away from combat in order to acquire an item that I know just spawned." - Way to go, you got an item that just spawned. Congratulations, I can see it when an item spawns too.

EDIT2: I challenge anybody and everybody in Ann Arbor to a 20$ MM under MLG rulesets best of 5. Whatever character you play, I'll play a character in that tier. If you play Zelda, you can't switch to Sheik unless I get to choose from Top. If you stick with Zelda, I'll play out of mid (which is where she is).

No johns son lol. Alright. It's not a personal attack but keep in mind that I get frustrated when someone who knows nothing about the game tries to act as if they do. And that's not insulting you personally, I'm just saying that you know less about the game than I do and that you should accept the fact that items contribute to randomized results.

As for a full ruleset (which I copied from MLG Pro)

Stage & Character Selection

1. The higher seed has first choice for their seat and controller port. Teams must sit together on one side or the other.
2. The first round stage is selected by random.
3. Singles random select stages: Final Destination, Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Rainbow Cruise, Dreamland 64 & Pokemon Stadium
4. Doubles random select stages: Final Destination, Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, Rainbow Cruise, Dreamland 64 & Pokemon Stadium, Corneria, Great Bay, Brinstar, DK64
5. Stages not listed on the random select list that are not banned are open for counter picks by the losing player.
6. Stages banned for Singles Only: Great Bay, Peach’s Castle, Mushroom Kingdom 2
7. Stages banned for Doubles Only: Fountain of Dreams.
8. Stages banned for Singles & Doubles: Yoshi’s Island (Pipes), Fourside, Hyrule Temple, Flatzone, Brinstar Depths, Icicle Mountain, Big Blue, Mushroom Kingdom 1, Venom and Yoshi's Island 64
9. No stage may be used twice in a single match. The random select stages are the only stages that may be used more than once in a best of 11 series.
10. After characters have been selected for the first game, each player/team may choose one stage from the available tournament list that won’t be used during the match. The lower seeded player must make their banned stage choice first. Once the first game has started, stages can’t be knocked out.
11. After each game of a match, the player who lost the previous game may choose the stage for the next game or elect for it to be chosen randomly. After the stage has been selected, the winner of the previous game may change characters. After the winner has chosen their character, the loser of the previous game may change characters.
12. For the first game of a match, a player may call for a double-blind pick. This means that all participating players must tell a judge the character they will use for that game. Each player is required to use that character in the game.
13. During Professional events, players may ask for a double-blind pick during games four and five of a match. Players must call for the pick after the loser of the previous game has chosen the next game’s stage.
14. If players/teams meet for a 2nd time in the Pro Bracket, their series will expand to a best of 11, include the previous series, and pick up where that series left off. The loser of the first series will choose the stage for the first game and players may call for a double-blind pick before any game throughout the best of 11.
15. If the players/teams meeting in the Championship Match have not yet faced each other in a series and the team coming from the Losers Bracket wins first match, another match must be played to break the tie since both players/teams would only have one series loss.

Other Rules & Special Issues

1. Any unnecessary pausing of the game will result in a forfeit of that single game.
2. Glitches used to stop your opponent from controlling their character or indefinitely freezing them (Mewtwo's Soul Stunner, the Ice Climber freeze glitch), or any glitch or trick that freezes the game or makes it unable to be finished are banned and will result in the immediate forfeit of the entire match.
3. Tactics such as Peach's Wallbombing and Jiggly's Rising Pound are allowed as methods of recovery or to maneuver around the stage. Using them (or any similar tactics) to excessively stall a match, such as dropping below levels intentionally and stalling underneath, is banned. If by using one of these tactics, you have put your character in a place to lose a stock by ending the tactic, a judge may force you to stop and lose a life and continue the match short a stock.
4. During the Professional event, players may designate a coach before the start of the match. This coach may not instruct the player during actual game play, but can be consulted for a maximum of 1 minute between games. Once the stage for the next game has been selected, players may not meet with their coaches.
5. For Doubles matches, Team Attack is ON
6. For Doubles matches, life stealing is allowed

As you can imagine, some of those things don't really apply, since we don't have a bracket.

I think you should try learning about all the arguments that have been for items on this blog before you come on here thinking you know best. We've had the item discussion several times and every single time the ‘no items’ side has lost. Guess what their argument was? It was the same one you've been spewing as holy. So in short do some bloody research before you think you're right! Eli made concessions to all you 'no item' acolytes at the planning meeting, if you wanted to limit them more you should have made your argument then. You happen to be ignoring the biggest argument against an MGL style tournament. TIME, we only have 2 hours to complete all SSBM which makes a best of 11 fricken impossible not to mention with a 1 min. coaching in between each match. In short shut-up and sit-down you have no idea what you're talking about, you're merely making the same argument that failed half a dozen times so live with it. Yes items contribute to randomized results THAT'S PARTLY WHY WE LIKE THEM.

I think the reason you always "win" is because all the intelligent people just stop caring and leave. Mainly because all you seem to do is tell people they're wrong without any sort of backing for it. I say this because in your reply, you made NOT ONE argument against me. You simply said that I was wrong and that you've done this before and won.

"Rupert Smashboards is affiliated with the association that organizes and judges the majority of all smash tournaments.

Yeah I know why people play No items and neutral stages and I put it up there with professional Basket ball not allowing zone defense because it’s too effective. I find that it makes the game less of a game and more of a joke. It takes all the thinking out of the game and makes it a battle of who can twiddle there thumbs the fastest. It basically just makes it a physical challenge and not a mental challenge. I can totally see why you wouldn't want a mental challenge given your isolated and ignorant outlook.

Big blue was Banned hence there was at less one childish argument not to mention you were there so I’d expect that there were many more. I don't like big blue that much but it shouldn't be banned just because people don't like it. That mind set is archaic and childish. It's no different then a kid whining for a toy or not to eat something because it's different.

Oh now your twisting my words let me twist yours. Why do you want to screw with all the stages and want only the simple carbon copy stages that have no more individualism than an ant? Why do you have to have it your way? It's like your some brain washed storm trooper with no more purpose then to follow the will of your controller without a thought. You probably don't have a single aspiration of your own in that half dead brain of yours. Were you born in the U.P. or something? I mean learn to think outside your little world and compromise with logic, because until then you will still be a little kid."

There is no "association" that judges or organizes the majority of Smash tournaments. The majority of them are fan run. Smashboards isn't affiliated with MLG, and all the other tournaments (fan run tournaments) don't have anything to do with Smashboards either. They just post their tournament locations and people go there. Smashboards is simply a place where you can let people know when and where the tournament will be happening.

As for your argument about "individualism" nobody cares. Tournaments aren't interested with how "individual" the stages are. They deal with who's a better player.

"I find that it makes the game less of a game and more of a joke. It takes all the thinking out of the game and makes it a battle of who can twiddle there thumbs the fastest. It basically just makes it a physical challenge and not a mental challenge. I can totally see why you wouldn't want a mental challenge given your isolated and ignorant outlook."

EXPLAIN SOMETHING. If you must know, any competitive smash player will tell you THE MOST IMPORTANT thing is MINDGAMES. Tricking you opponent into doing something which will give you an advantage. The best player in the world has pretty mediocre technical skill, but he's the BEST because he has good mindgames. NO good player has bad mindgames. The player with the best technical skill in the world isn't even on the top 50 list of smash players. I also feel that you need to stick to debate, and not wander off into a realm of personal attacks.

The reason we want certain stages banned is because they randomize results. For example, take Hyrule Temple. Players can stand in the little vein under the top and camp there FOREVER. It ends up coming down to who gets lucky with the shape of the map, and luck should not be a factor. It also makes matches last forever, which isn't a good thing.

As for having 2 hours to deal with 110 people, okay. 3 stock, 4 minute time limit, no items, and neutral stages only. There'd be about 7 rounds. Then there'd be about 55 players left, and taking care of those would be another 4 rounds, go down to 23 players taking two rounds, go down to 12 players and 6 and then the top 3 each play each other for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

Assuming 110 players, with two minutes in between each round (6 minutes per round), it would take less than two and a half hours. There would be no friendlies inbetween each round, though. Also, let people see the bracket so that after their match, they can stand where they need to be.

"Yes items contribute to randomized results THAT'S PARTILY WHY WE LIKE THEM."

My case could be finished here, as you've shown what I've said true. TOURNAMENTS ARE MEANT TO MINIMIZE RANDOMIZATION AND FIND THE MOST SKILLED PLAYER IN A GAME.

If you're going to argue with me, you're going to have to rebut my arguments, not just call me stupid/ignorant. The reason Rupert stopped posting (and he told this to me) was because he thought you were a stubborn idiot, and ignorant to the fact that items make the game less fair, and randomize results. Again, and I can't mention this enough, tournaments don't want randomization of results, they want to find the most skilled player.

I was not always the one arguing for items, in fact at one point I was on your side with 11 particular items, if you didn't notice the person that said "real men play with items" is in fact Eli the person who’s in charge of the library video game tournaments. Most tournaments are for finding the best player, but these tournaments are just for fun so that more kids come and enjoy the library. If you want to have a more serious tournament find somewhere else, these tournaments aren't like that.

Yes I tend to attack people who attack items because 1. I've had to defend it too many times and 2. The people who attack items tend not to want the tournaments to be more fun but make them more serious. Also I happen to love items, they are my preferred weapon and many people have annoyed me about items being unfair to the point that I have a built in dislike for anyone who advocates against them. You only went back to the last debate by the way, when I wasn't in a very good mood at all due to other circumstances. I find you selection of quotes to be rather amusing clips from rather large arguments and I wasn’t the first to become frustrated. I remember that at least then big blue was classified as a neutral stage so you putting that in your argument is counter to your point. I still find all your arguments against stages that we have already banned to be rather pointless. If you have problems with the stages that are left then name them, don’t just say these stages have problems so we have to get rid of these other stages.

You have to cut that time down because you forgot the team event and you have absolutely no leeway time. And if you want to know something I prefer 1v1 but I settled with the FFA because I recognized that the GT can’t have a purely 1v1 without overshooting the time restriction. You’re going to have to face it that MLG style doesn’t work for the GT and might not even work for the all ages smash.

OK here is my personal stand on items. I find that items provide a new depth of play that allows for greater strategy and more developed tactics. It's the 3rd dimension of smash that makes it more than a 2d fighter. ( there are a 11 items that I find to be unfair )

hey man pwnerer or something like that you need to lighten up on the no items thing.
i mean its like duck said i also used to argue for items;but the fact is you say that to find the most skilled player you have to take away items. But wouldn't the most skilled player be able to size up to any challenge. (i.e. Items spawning randomly). If you want to say that you're the best then you have to fight on other peoples terms and win. You don't get to be the best if you only play by you're own rules
And if you think that just because the rules arent to youre advantage that you cant win then find some other tournament that use the rules that you think suit you. If its not the AADL-GT well to bad. Just leave because you kno no one will miss you anyway.

holder of the 6168th post

Flara, what would you say if it was VERY close between me and the next best player? Result randomization from items and poor stage choices could very well cloud the outcome, and I personally think that's bad. I'm not mad, I'm simply saying that if you're going to argue against me, give me some reasons why you're right. I gave you reasons why I'M right, so I'd like to hear reasons supporting other sides too. Also, keep in mind that the "win on our terms" argument holds no water. If you think about it, that's like telling someone "win with my rules, no matter how random the outcome may be". That simply doesn't make sense, and you should remember that these aren't "my rules" these are the FAIREST rules, which take into account the skill of a player more than anything else.

Also, a history lesson. The Smash Community didn't always play "items off certain stages banned" they used to play all items on and all stages on. Slowly, as tournaments progressed, they started banning certain items and stages, 'till the day came when no items were left. In fact, the West Coast region LOVED items, but they slowly realized why they were unfair, and eventually came to like items off just as much.

EDIT: Didn't see Duck's earlier post :D

"I was not always the one arguing for items, in fact at one point I was on your side with 11 particular items, if you didn't notice the person that said "real men play with items" is in fact Eli the person who’s in charge of the library video game tournaments. Most tournaments are for finding the best player, but these tournaments are just for fun so that more kids come and enjoy the library. If you want to have a more serious tournament find somewhere else, these tournaments aren't like that."

Well, the quote I provided was the latest one I saw. I didn't bother to look any further, since the post itself seemed rather long and I didn't really think you'd say much more. Don't get mad at me because you have trouble controlling your anger =/

As for the "fun" argument, in certain parts I agree with you. I agree that people come to have fun, and they should. Since we really haven't experimented with items off, maybe THIS season, we could try it. If people seem to like it, or don't complain about it (and there'd have to be more complaining about items off than items on), then we should stick with it. If not, then we can go back to having items on. As for the "real men play with items" quote, I don't really care if it was Eli that said it. The entire point I made from that quote was a joke, I was joking around with you saying that the person (from the quote) had implied that only guys play games.

I don't have trouble controlling my anger, I'm a really subdued person. It only shows when I'm not in a pleasant mood to begin with or when someone pushes one of my few buttons.

It's still not your decision and you'll have to convince Eli, which I don't see happening since he's just as much for items as I am.
[gtlogo:VMC]

Submitted by MDidget on Mon, 07/03/2006 - 9:29pm

"It only shows when I'm not in a pleasant mood to begin with or when someone pushes one of my few buttons."

Like that one time Brian locked you out of the comsci room and you barged in and destroyed him? =P

Okay, ill shut up now ._.

I never said it was my decision, and where do I contact Eli? I need him for more than one thing. I need to ask where he gets those cubes + television sets. But yeah, I'll try to convince him. At least now we know that everybody agrees on items + FFA = not meant for competitive play. =)

EDIT: Come play me at FC6 in Indiana!!! FC6 = Fun! And if you want items on, I'm sure someone there will want to play with them too. Competitive players enjoy them both (items and no-items); I'm just one of those players that doesn't.

EDIT2: About FC6, there's a low-tier tournament, and massive amounts of friendlies, so there'll be lots to do! There'll be MEGAMAN speed run tournaments (MEGAMAN 2). And if you have any other games you want to play, there're those too. But you'll have to bring them. =)

EDIT3: I know there are a lot of sentence fragments in my posts. There's nothing I can do about it ;_;.

The TVs and Cubes are owned by the library and are consequently stored in library facilities to my knowledge. I think you missed the point we can't implement that style in the GT. You might have some luck with a Smash only one, but the GT is hopeless. I still want items and FFA I don't mind for the gt as it is the most convenient (time and event point balance) and I've grown accustomed to it.
[gtlogo:VMC]

Wait but how do I contact Eli? And why is it hopeless for the GT? As for the Smash only tournaments, I think he'll be even more inclined. I believe that if Eli listens to an actual argument on the subject, and maybe sees a few videos of competitive play he'll see just how entertaining a no items one v one match can be. And if a time issue arises, just start at 6 and go until 9:30 or 10. Surely that's enough to give the top 16 or so a solid best of 3. And how do I contact Eli?

Sorry the library closes at 9 on weekdays and 6 on weekends. There have been some really extensive arguments on this subject don't think your is going to win him over. The reason I said the items side has won is because Eli agreed with our points. He already has a no items 1v1 option at the Smash only. The format is pretty much set because of the time restriction. I'd think he'd show up he pretty soon because of the pre-season tournament.

You can do a few things, Mdigit.
1. Get in the top 4 of an event
2. Be in a qualifying clan
3. Have a high amount of points (this is subject to Eli's will about how many points are needed)

and if you fail in all three above choices you can always enter the wildcard
[gtlogo:VMC]

no just an aadl-gt tournmament
hey pwnerer if you are losing a war and th other side has such a big advantage taht thdey can herd you into doing any thing thatthat they want you to do but then an earth quake hits and destroys the enemy army then you WON the war and it was on THEIR terms.and the oppisite could happen eithjer way it maks a much more exicting war to wacth.
and by the way if you played a 1v1 macth no items and 3stocked that person without taking a hit that woukd be a much more boring macth then if an item appered and gave the other person a fighting chance
and by the way fair is in the eye of the beholder. a macth against between you and a person that "sucks" witout items could seem fair to you but the other person might not because that person never stood a chance, but with items if that "sucky" person won or lost you would think that items are un-fair but the "sucky" person might find it more fair because thye wild card (items) gave him a reason to keep fighting a hope that he/she might get luck y and get a lugia 3 times in a row (not saying that this would happen but someone might strill hope that it might)
One last thing: hey ducki dont post on here very much anymore becauseof 7 reasons
1. I have lots of things to occupy my time
2. convos. have died down
3.half the time i get on the computer i dont have a internet connection.
4.posting is not as fun unless there is an argumrnt going on
5.ive been sleeping
6.ive beeen thinking about reasons not to post (im just kidding)
7.there is no 7
holder of the 6168th post

Submitted by Pwnerer on Tue, 07/04/2006 - 5:02pm

That argument still makes no sense, Flara. I don't care about how the other person feels about a win or a loss, if they're less skilled, then they should lose. Hope is not my issue and I'd rather lose under a real ruleset than win under a bad one. Secondly, by your logic, I could say, in a fighting tournament, "Fight me with your fists while I have a gun" and you'd have to fight me "on my terms" to be better than me. As you can see, that logic is stupid and should never be applied. We are trying to make it such that the player of greater skill will win. Luck should be minimized in a tournament, therefore items should not be involved in competitive play. Same goes for FFA. You're being childish by bringing up an argument that had already ended. We already came to the agreement that Items and FFA are not fit for REAL competitive play and the reason they're in AADL is because FFA is less time consuming and items are more enjoyed by people.

EDIT: And nobody's told me where to contact Eli.

HOW DO I CONTACT ELI?

you email him idk his email though

no i didnt bring up an argument that already ended i was just replying to the last comment that you directed at me i just happened to do it a little late
and btw you misunderstand what im saying (i understand i am horrible at using grammer) what i meanis that sometimes to be the best you have to take on that gun with youre fistsand other times youll have the gun but as ive said before ssbm is just like life in someways you run from youre problems or face them head on either way you can win or lose but when you fight head on and lose at least you kno that you did the best that you can do (plz dont bother criticizing my philosophys because they are about he one thing that i do belive in and if i doont stick to and defend my bbnelifs whatys he point in beliving in them right?)
and what you said about about me being childish i wasnt attacking your points(on purpose at least) i was just defending mine.
so i ask you whos more childish the man who defends his pride or the man that attacks another mans pride without need(or sometimes cause) Im not calling anyone childish but im just wondering what everyone thinks

If you wanna be my lover you have got to give; takin is to easy but thats the way it is
-Wannabe
by
The Spice Girls

Now who's the one attacking others, Pwnerer. May I point out that you brought up this argument from its grave. By your logic way do you even bother playing if you know you're not the best, hardily makes for a good tournament if there is only one player. And I still think items belong in competitive play, maybe not all of them but they DO belong.
[gtlogo:VMC]

I had no knoweledge of this argument having been made before. Your attacks are also much harsher and you're much quicker to make them. A bias against people who don't like items is no excuse to insult them. I don't see your logic at all Duck. Also, there are plenty of people in Ann Arbor who might contest another's claim of being the best. This is why we have tournaments to decide who is the best among that group of people. People go to tournaments where they know they're not the best because they enjoy it or they want to show themselves capable of doing well. And you didn't give me a reason as to why items belong in competitive play. All you said is that you think they do.

Edit: Now we're stuck arguing about this again. I thought you'd seen it differently.

EDIT: What's Eli's email?

EDIT2: Alright, Flare. That's fine. As for your argument though, we have the OPTION of giving the person with just fists the gun. That would make the fight more fair, right? So I think we should give him the gun (or in this case) take it away from both and ban items.

And you were being a pushy know-it-all that wasn't thinking things though, which in my mind is more childish. Well guess what I don't really see your logic why they shouldn't be, I don't find it a convincing argument that semi-random events are bad. Coping with shifts is a necessary skill and if you only lost by the unfriendly turn of a card then you should be proud that you got that far. I find that items expand upon the game by providing new moves and tactics. If you don't get that logic then you're hopeless. Items aren't as random as you think, computers can't be truly random. There are only a few different styles of item (bat, throwing, projectile, status changing) and they occur in consistent fashion. If it was random you would see matches where every item was a fire flower or homerun bat but it doesn't happen so it's proof that it's not random.
[gtlogo:VMC]

Actually, that DOES happen. I've had a match where the items were predominantly fan, homerun bat, and sword, with all the items turned on. The same thing happens with Pokeballs sometimes.

Anyways, your argument is weak. The fact remains that when someone gets an item it will not be as good as another item and since they are not the SAME ITEM then they are inherently unbalanced, no matter how close they are. And you're simply a conceited loser. You suck at this game, and I'm mediocre. But when I say that you suck, I can back it up by beating you at the game. You can make no such argument.

As for not thinking things through, while I'm not going to bother Flara about this, he didn't have to respond to a dead argument, and then start it up again. In fact it was unreasonable to do so. So really it was he that didn't think things through, and YOU are the know-it-all. Produce some FACTS before trying to attack someone's argument, rather than spitting out biased opinions. ANY randomization is BAD for a tournament. A tournament seeks to find the most skilled player and any sort of bias toward someone, and any existence of luck, should be removed if possible. Items, and stages which cause uncontrollable, undesirable, and randomized effects are unhealthy for the game. Why do you think that, as the smash community evolved, they banned each and every item? That's because your argument for items being tournament worthy isn't as well founded as the argument for items being unhealthy in tournaments. And narrowing it down to a "projectile item" is nothing. There are many kinds, and if they're not the same, then it isn't fair. Some capsules are explosive, and some aren't, and since the only way to get rid of capsules is to turn off items, then items should be turned off in tournaments.

While I’ve seen matches where certain items are favored it’s not to nearly the level of random. Do stars or hearts appear as much as fans or ray guns? No that’s because they put on different spawn rates hence it’s not truly random even for a computer.

It's not like the programmers designed it to be fair, I mean tiers exist. Characters like Bowser and Mewtwo even when played by a great player simply lose to a Peach or Fox played by a player of equal caliber. Plus are not opponents random, I don’t see you attacking that. Isn’t getting the hardest brackets similar to having items hurt you? Isn’t having an easy set of brackets akin to the dice favoring you?

The argument didn’t die you never convinced me that items were “BAD” as you put it.

All you do is assume that we hold the library tournaments for the same reason other people hold their tournaments. It's the Ann Arbor library trying to get people to just have fun at the library, not the national smash finals. Excuse me why would I be a conceited loser, I've won more at these events then anyone else and would have retired if it wasn't for clans. I've thrown matches to players much worse than me and played tournament matches just for fun when I could have gained. In this argument I'm not the one desperately trying to change something and insulting those that don't automatically agree with me. Why do you care so much about this, is it because you want to beat up all these "sucky" players easily for your own ego or do you just want the money? I mean you said yourself that there are only 2 decent players, you and the other one is your friend. So if you wanted to see who was the best you don't have to come to these events that house rules you don't like. I find that items and ffa are more fun than itemless 1v1 and don’t want that fun to be sucked out by making it all about the money and who’s best. Making an uninviting room to the younger less experienced crowd is the last thing I want to see.

Also on review of your arguments you have barely used facts so it’s not like I need to use anything more than my own experiments and observations. You’ve used your own bias opinion and spurted things as facts without backing them up. All your stage banning argument was based on stuff that had already been remedied and you’ve given up on the others because you don’t actually know what’s wrong with them. You’ve engaged in insults more so than me (your 5 or so to my 2). So much in fact I’m wondering where you get this thing about me being harsh to you if anything it’s the other way around. I think you’re just trying to take the moral superiority because 1 I aggravated your friend and 2 to make your argument seem in the right without really proving it. Mind you that you’re the prosecution not the defense, it’s up to you to prove that items make the game less fun because these tournaments are for fun and the prizes are just bait.

"Badges? We ain't got no badges! We don't need no badges! I don't have to show you any stinking badges!"
[gtlogo:VMC]

wow just wow just just wow
"I didnt think things through"
.....Well DUH ask anyone on this board if i have ever thought any thing through just ask them. Do it. you kno what ill ask them myself.
HEY EVERYBODY WHO IS READING THIS DOES FLARA THINKS THYINGS THROUGH???????????

no. i dont. It's true I'm not going to argue against something that is true.(Im not that "Childish")But you want to kno what is childish? That you think that Duck is carring on the argument when in fact you were the one to start it in the first place.1st rule of battle you need a reason to attack, to counterattack the reason is already there for you.
but the battle is over after that but yet you attacked again this time without reason but a "defense" that might be mistook for reason. your "reaon"was that our arguments were weak.

Do you want to kno whats "weak"? your arguments. or should i say argument. You just have been using the same argument over and over again. You say that are arguments are weak,then you basicalyy say that we have no facts, then you use a past experince and claim that your experince is "evidence" well you what I can play at your own game just as well as you can. Here is a time where I lost because of an exploding capsule
Me and sravan in the eliminaion rounds one second left and i missed him and hit the capsule the capsule expoded and i lost. But just because i lost doesn't mean that i didnt have fun that macth was lots of fun. I lost the fight and was eliminated would i rather of not hit the capsule and fought him in sudden death? Yeah of course i would have but i wasn't upset becuse thats life things happen. RANDOM things happen and thats what makes life worth living because you never know what will actully happen until it does and once it's happened it's happened nd f you want to be a baby and complain about go ahead all you are doing is just refusing to accept fate.

Tell me wher do you get off telling duck that he sucks and that YOU at least can back it up because you are MEDIOCARE. well you what I can tell something you suck at. LIFE. and i dont even need to back that argument up because you its true but though i dont have i still can and will when I feel lke you've said something stupid enogh for me to do so.

You say you dont like items because they can make it so that the better palyer (in this case you) could lose to a not as skilled player (me for example) but you forget that libary doesnt hold the topurnaments to give money to best player its thei rto help get more people coming to the libary and i think that its working so if you want to play and have fun with all of the randomness and everything then go ahead and stay. But if the only reason you come is to win then find yourself another tournamnt for all of the other people who dont see what ssbm really is. It's just a game. And the only reason you play a game is to have fun, and if the only way you can have fun is by winning then you need to shape up your attitude because the most importent factor about having fun playing a bame is sportsmanship and when you only play to win your not playing the game anymore youre just mashing butoons on a controller so that you can win money and thats not what the AADl is about it is about establising a community of people, getting them books so that they won't be illetrite, but most importent ly its about the people and whaen any single person comes in without thought for the community and only about his pocketthats one of the few things that ticks me off.

So I've said it once and I'll say it again you don't have to come to these tournaments and if you want to leave go ahead and leave NO ONE i repeat NO ONE will miss you or your negative tude.

If you wanna be my lover you have got to give; takin is to easy but thats the way it is
-Wannabe
by
The Spice Girls

Submitted by Sir Ducksalot on Wed, 07/05/2006 - 8:57pm

Flara that was a little harsh. I was trying to avoid making him angry because even though he's mislead as to the nature of these events he's still a kid that wants to play in the tournaments. As Eli has said we shall hold tournaments for all to enjoy and all includes him and his friends. Just like it includes you and your friends and me and my friends.
[gtlogo:VMC]

I have no stake in this argument, because I won't be here next year (at least not competing), but I think that Flara should recieve some sort of penalty for sigging a <strong><em>SPICE GIRLS SONG</strong></em>.

I mean come on, that's just not right!!!
---
"OK, next year we're going to change the tournament name from AADL-GT to AADL-G<strong>R</strong>... "Goat Rodeo!!!" - Eli <strong>
5000th comment poster!</strong>[gtlogo:VMC]

First off, there's no way you aggravated Rupert. He simply doesn't get pissed about things on the internet, unlike -Why do you have to have it your way? It's like your some brain washed storm trooper with no more purpose then to follow the will of your controller without a thought. You probably don't have a single aspiration of your own in that half dead brain of yours. Were you born in the U.P. or something? I mean learn to think outside your little world and compromise with logic, because until then you will still be a little kid.- some people do. As for personal attacks, I only made 1.

Anyways, let's get on to the main point. This isn't necessarily an argument about the AADL tournaments, it's about which of the two produces a more balanced playing field for all players involved. As for your bracket argument, a player can't win if he's not the best player there, because he'll have to play the best player somewhere down the line and the best player won't lose to anybody on the way there because he's the best.

Mind you that all I have to show is that no items are AS fun as with items. Basically, I direct you to the mainstream smash community, which plays with neutrals and no items. They all enjoy the game just as much without items, and some are strongly against it. I only made one personal attack and that was that you were a conceited loser. I'll stand by that until you can beat somebody with a name, or me.

As for your argument about the tiers being unfair, they aren't. Or at least not in a real tournament setting which I understand is impossible with your time restrictions. Most tournaments have best of 3 Advanced Slob Picks and random neutrals. Advanced slobs means that the loser of the first match (which is both players select characters at the same time, then they go to a random neutral stage) picks a stage, then the winner picks a new character, and then the loser picks his character. Finals are usually best of 5.

As for the tournaments, all I'm trying to do is make them more ideal and inviting for players miles away. They'd come to play if you offered a better ruleset. As for younger players being scared off, it's pretty simple, all that's happened is that items have been turned off. Most inexperienced players probably think items can get unfair anyways, and people who haven't gone to a library tournament won't likely be deterred. Since you guys haven't tried it, there's no real proof on either side. Except maybe the 200 or so people that drive up to 12 hours to play 1v1 no items :P.

I can understand that maybe this is about AADL, but for me it isn't. I'm just trying to argue that items make the games less fair and aren't worthy in tournaments.

As for the stars guns and hearts argument, I can't say much except they seem to spawn pretty equally to me. And finally, I've said this before, but my argument is based on you not being able to predict which item in particular will spawn, and therefore items aren't "fair" in that two players don't have the same "chance" of winning. Note that I'm not factoring in skill, since that shouldn't be tampered with. Playing with items is kind of like playing with a variable handicap. It could benefit you, and it could harm you. The reason I'm against them is because I want to place where I SHOULD place every time. No higher, no lower. You say that I "want to make the game less fun" that's not true, I don't.

"As for the "fun" argument, in certain parts I agree with you. I agree that people come to have fun, and they should. Since we really haven't experimented with items off, maybe THIS season, we could try it. If people seem to like it, or don't complain about it (and there'd have to be more complaining about items off than items on), then we should stick with it. If not, then we can go back to having items on."

EDIT: Lots of posts inbetween this one and the one which I'm replying too :x

If it's not about the AADL then why are you here? Why do we want people from 12 hours away? They aren't here to use the library facilities for anything other than videogames. The first season you were required to have a library card to play, but they did away with that because of the commuter population. Is someone going to drive 12 hours to use a library? The people that live 3, 6 or 12 hours away are not our targets. If they are in the area sure they can come but don’t tell someone to drive here from Texas for just a game.

Lets count the insults you’ve made:
“When someone who knows nothing about the game tries to act as if they do” I’m sorry no [w: Weasel words]
“As for your argument about "individualism" nobody cares.”
“Don't get mad at me because you have trouble controlling your anger”
“You're being childish”
“And you're simply a conceited loser. You suck at this game,”
Looks like 5 to me and I was lenient there are two more I’m not bothering with.

If the second best player plays the best player in the first round he doesn't get recognized as the second best. If you should place every time then this is a pretty big problem, as the second best player loses to first before the final round almost half of the time, if not 2nd best that loses, 3rd best loses (before the top 4) again almost half of the time, and 4th best loses 3/4ths of the time if no one above him loses early. So as you can see even if you are the 2nd 3rd or 4th best player you are not guaranteed anything. If you ask me the place in the brackets is much more random. It’s determines the outcome much more than items do. Items change results less than 10% of the time and usually only matches that are close anyway. So it’s not really who was 2nd best, it was who won the coin flip. 1 in 4 tournaments have two of the 2nd - 4th players lose early.

“As for the stars guns and hearts argument, I can't say much except they seem to spawn pretty equally to me. And finally, I've said this before, but my argument is based on you not being able to predict which item in particular will spawn, and therefore items aren't 'fair' in that two players don't have the same 'chance' of winning.”
Well I can't always predict that item x will be spawning in 2 seconds (I haven’t spent enough time to have it completely correct every time), but I have been able to. Last season I had a few matches where I said "that's spawning now on the far side of the field" and it did. I don’t usually argue this because my testing is incomplete but not inconclusive, it does appear that items fall in a predictable manner. And don’t you dare say that this is crap because it’s only my experience or something because you just said “they seem to spawn pretty equally to me”. I can see why some people might see it fairer to ban items as this is a hard skill to master and requires a lot of study and training, wait a second isn’t that your point, to see who is the best and who spent the most time learning the ins and outs of the game?

Edit:
You don't have to prove that no items is as fun as items. You have to prove that it is more fun without items. If you don't change for the better why change at all.
[gtlogo:VMC]

:D Okay, but you'll have to tell me HOW you're telling where when and which item is falling. You'll also have to describe how you know if a pill/crate is explosive. :D

Also, I'd only really consider the last one an insult. The others are true or simply not insulting.

It's really hard for me to tell you how I know. I just sort of picked it up and have been using it since. Part of the reason I don't argue it is because I don't understand how I ever know it to the small amount I know. I will admit most of my successes have been with crate/barrel/pill when they burst 3 or 4 items and I only am looking for 1. I know that when down to two players there is a high consistency of items appearing as far away as possible (based on both players being close together). I have no clue about explosive pills, they only occur about 5% of the time but I have no way of telling which ones they are.

As for brawl. Isn't the wii coming out this year (possible championship prize maybe). That means we might switch to brawl next season and almost for sure the season after.
"Who's on first."

Edit:
Also a new item spawns about every 11 seconds. Giving about 21 or 22 item spawns a 4 min. match. With single items spawns vs. containers being about the same in number.
[gtlogo:VMC]

I agree that the Wii would make a great Championship Prize. It'll be desirable and not that expensive. Also I think that since most Michigan players consider Ann Arbor to be pretty bad (in terms of Smash), I'll make plans to hold a tournament. I have TM already, so it should be fine :P. I just don't know where. For anybody considering it, the ruleset will be similar to MLG, although I don't see how Rainbow Cruise can be considered neutral. There might be a low-tier tourney as well, if time allows (doubles is definite though). Note that the new tier list will be out by then, and I'll give you the heads up that the mid-tier will no longer be used in them. And if Dope from Orion shows up, all the better (I'm pretty sure he will, since he LOVES free money :P).

Oh yeah. And if you have any ideas about where I could host it, let me know.

Keep looking, if there actually is a way to predict items, then somehow I'm sure that it'll affect the Smash community. I'd make a big post in the SBR, that's for sure. Until then, I'm going to stick with no items being more tournament viable than items. :P

Is the pre-season event on saturday the 22nd or sunday the 23rd? I've seen it listed as both. It seems like it should be saturday but the axis flyer I have says sunday.

Edit
Also when will we be able to register clans? The VMC has 5 members so far.

"Who's on first."
[gtlogo:VMC]

Speaking of televised, when will the season 2 DVD be coming out?

Also, before last season there was an explanation of the scoring system and tournament format before the season started. I don't remember if it came out before or after the preseason, but I was wondering when, or if, we could expect that.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

"TORTURIS EXUVIAS EUNT"

Never Have i seen that many posts in one day and during the off-season i read some of it, but than i had to skimm through about 20 what is the use about arguing over something set in stone.
I don't think the pre-season will not be televised. Eli should have a post up on all those things soon perferably sooner than later because the preseason is only 2 weeks and 1 day away.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]
Edit Before Tp2

Isn't it funny that when Eli makes a post to clear everything up posts dramaticially drop. Their were about 45 in a period of one day in 3 days after Elis their have been about 5.
I know i might sound a little impatient, but when are the tourtament rules,settings,clan scorings and all that gonna be up since it is only 13 days away till pre-season
A couple ideas on my unexperted opinon
First off for looking at rankings it would be cool if you could sort it by whi has the most MarioKart points most single player kart points most Co-Op points most melee points most single melee most team melee points,Individual tourtaments,overall score and the money leader. Also doing something similar maybe not as many would be cool for clans so you can see if a clan is balanced or not. IF you could make half of that like Mario Kart Melee Money and overalll that would be cool too I just dont know how much work that would be.
One last thing is their anyway you could take the CTN brodcast and put it online into a video you could watch when the tourtament is done or live and possibly download.

[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

Don't be too worried Bad driver. The pre-season doesn't count for the gt so this is where we try things and work out bugs so we don't need those things just yet. You can bet it will be close to what we had last season with some slight changes.

Bad driver that's a really good idea, I really would like being able to sort players based on MK or SS records.
Well putting the broadcast on the web (your tube or something) would be a nice thing but I'm sure it would take a long time to work out and might be asking too much of the staff.
"Who's on first."
[gtlogo:VMC]

MAN! This has been quite a rip-roaring thread about those top ten NES games! Sorry I haven't gotten into this sooner.

Pwnerer, you make some excellent points. I understand that there are conventions and standards out there that have grown up around Super Smash Brothers, and that those standards have evolved in a very intense, competitive and fairness-oriented environment. I can see your points that these rules provide a framework to judge who is the most superior player of the Super Smash Brothers core fighting mechanic. However, as others have said, we're not here to determine who is the most superior player of the super smash brothers core fighting mechanic, we're here to play videogames and have a good time.

I understand that the risk and randomness posed by our current item settings can result in the superior player losing a match, and I see the perspective that says that this is an inherently flawed concept for a tournament as a fundamental measure of prowess. Nothing is worse than losing to a player you can beat.

That said, as a public library,our goal is to be as inclusive as possible. The fact is that we lose far more players because they have no hope of succeeding in the tournament than we lose because they feel that they lost to a inferior player. I want players of different skill levels to be able to come to the tournament and have hope of beating a better player! That's more fun for everyone but the best player, and if you look at the stats, it's pretty clear <a href="http://www.aadl.org/aadlgt/player/335&quot; title="If our setup is so unfair, how come you keep winning?">who that is</a>. Having a chance to win as an underdog means randomness, chance, lady luck. That shot at hope is what keeps these newbs coming back even after you kick their butts again and AGAIN and AGAIN, Pwnerer. Take away the items, and the only hope they have is that you'll mess up.

That said, I am open to continuing to move the standalone Super Smash Tournaments in a more professional direction; it's a different format, a different audience, and there's not the same time crunch as a GT season event. However, our GT season events are intended to get a lot of people together to play games, and the value of items to shake things up and give the underdog a chance is too great to discard in pursuit of a purer measure of superiority.

Also, while I'd love to pull in players from further away, the fact is that they aren't paying for these events. The citizens of Ann Arbor are paying for these events, and I've always said that if we ever have to start turning people away (and we got VERY close last season), people who don't live in Ann Arbor will get turned away first. That's just how public libraries are funded; our first responsibility is to our service area. Along those lines, our equipment is not available to outside groups except through a partnership with us, and even if you rented the room, you can't charge admission for events at the library. Feel free to email me at eli@aadl.org if you want to talk about that further.

So, this has been a very lively debate, but as they say, the buck stops here, and items aren't going anywhere this upcoming season. The fact is that items are more fun for the inferior players - which means everyone but the winner - because it's no fun to have no hope of success. However, our tournaments will continue to grow and evolve too, and Pwnerer remains entitled to his well-articulated opinions. Plus, who knows what Brawl has in store for us, but it's a safe bet there will be items....

Pwnerer, you're going to FC6 as well? Awesome :D I've been dying to hit one of the Ship of Fools events, and even if I have to attend as a spectator only, I can't miss the chance.

Hopefully I'll see you around, and anyone else that makes it here. If you don't know the area, post your AIM name and I can get ahold of you and explain the area a bit. Heck, maybe a bunch of Smashers could get together at some place and hang till the tourney? Just a thought.

And uh ... hi, to everyone else ^^; Long time lurker here.

More questions! w00t!

For the preseason, will the prizes (if there are any) be determined by game. Like a seperate prize for mario kart and seperate prizes for melee. Also if you get 4th place or higher, do you qualify for the Grand Championship?

Yes there are prizes for the pre-season (smaller denominations than gt tournaments). Most likely since we're switching formats to prizes for both SS and DD for the GT, I should think that's how the pre-season works. As for GC qualifaction, no it's not part of the season so it doesn't count.

I forgot about that post. He'll get to if he has time, I mean this is sidenote on what the library employs him for.

"Who's on first."
[gtlogo:VMC]

Submitted by eli on Fri, 06/23/2006 - 9:13pm.
I'll have a post up in the next two weeks with details about next season,
Well being the person i am im actually pretty good with counting and it has been 2 weeks and since i sit all day refershing the blog waiting for Eli to post sometimes i feel impatient.
Just kdding eli take your time no rush just looking for additonal rules for practicing and clan planning and Duck i do know hat it doesnn't count but their are still prizes right?
I guess eli when you make such a great service like this... As wise man would say Eli give them bread and they excpect gourmet sandwhiches. Thank you in advance for a great season 3
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

Not many comments. I guess everybody is anticpiating Elis great post and practicing a little maybe. Ill save my questions until u make the season format post because they will most likely be awnsered.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

Mdidget i believe there are seperate prizes for all tourtaments. I have been a member for a year and 15 hours. YEah being a member. Eli who has been a member for the longest on the new blog?
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

Submitted by TC Bad driver on Thu, 06/29/2006 - 9:56am

Their was about 250 total people who came to the 5 AADL-GT season yet no one tourtament had more than 100 people or much beyond that so a lot of poeople came to one tourtament than left. This is not saying that this program is done bad it is probally one of if not the most popular teen program at the library and also you have people building clans and posting on the fourum.
Yet somepeople seem to come to one tourtament and than not come to anymore. MAybe they were planning to only come to one tourtament or thought they were going to be the best and found out they were in the middle of the pack the only other possible reason i could see is that somebody comes all by themselve has fun but their is just to little time when they were playing and maybe 4 or so hours when they are idle and doing nothing and not knowing anyone leaves them bored.
Eli and whoever helps dont take this as critisim take this as adding A1 sausce to an already juicy steak something doesnt need fixied but could be improved
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]

sorry Eli i run out of things to do over the summer. E.B.D. working to buy video games :). I can wait until the end of the week although pre season is in approxamatley 12 days. It will be a great tourtament hopefully.
[img_assist|fid=126|thumb=1|alt=Turtle Clan Logo|caption=AADL-GT Turtle Clan]
I was playing around with my player info a bit and clicked on turtle clan a nice little upgrade would for the clan captian to manage a lttle profile of the clan or something. Maybe something like this
The turtle clan was founded at the beggining of sesason 2 by turtleperson2 and than quickly formed turtle clan 2 founded by multiple parties. Turtle clan has grown from the axis tourtaments to PC gaming but still remains strong to their roots. Turtle clan one's 3 members are returning for another action packed season when season 3 comes around. Turtleperson2 finishing 2nd overall and being one of the big players at these tourtaments. Bad driver his brother main game is Mariokart and the tp2 and B.D. team won the first and second tourtaments. Bowser got third place in round one and is more skilled at melee than Kart him and TP2 have done exceptional in team melee winning onec and having a 4 way tie for first once.
Maybe a little shorter or something also you can trash talk and all that stuff just an idea what do u think i do all day :)

I loved that sonic cartoon along with the other one that wasn't as dark. Although I can't wait for the "Animaniacs" and "Pinky and the Brain" DVDs to final come out this month.
"Who's on first."
[gtlogo:VMC]

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