Player Podcast: The Savages on Balance

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Here's a provocative podcast, produced by longtime tournament regulars [gtplayer:143] (Level 43) and his brother [gtplayer:146] (Level 41), called the AADL-GT Forum. In this episode, they talk about balance, make some excellent suggestions, and air some well-reasoned gripes. Check it out! Don't forget, if you want to produce your own podcast to be published here, or come in and use our podcast studio, just let me know at eli at aadl.org.

Enjoy!

AttachmentSize
AADL-GT-Forum-Ep1.mp325.48 MB

Comments

Just to address a few things you guys brought up:

First, team attack was not a fair change for the day of the tournament as they mention, and after researching it a bit, we will go back to having friendly fire be OFF for the next tournament. If some players choose to take unfair advantage of single-character team ups, that's their choice, but the idea of teams is to do a 2 on 2 battle, not 2 simultaneous 1 on 1 battles, so friendly fire will remain off.

Also, as you guys know, we did what we had to do to stay something close to schedule in Round 1, but we want to have true double elimination for the team events. We will start much closer to Noon at Round 2, so get there early to be sure to get a good pool.

Now, on the balance issue, I think this is a very valid concern, and I have an idea that may settle the issue. First, I'm not concerned at all about [gtplayer:483]'s relatively kart-free presence at the top of the leaderboard; as BD points out during the podcast, #1 Cisco took first in both smash events, while #2 [gtplayer:736] took first in kart singles and second in kart teams. If John had taken first in both kart events, he'd be on the top of the leaderboard right now. So that's not really a concern. However, it is true that more points are awarded in smash than in kart.

This wouldn't be too big a deal if it was a small difference, but Round 1 Smash Singles awarded a total of 28762 points to 63 players, for an average of 456.5 points per player, while Round 1 Kart Singles awarded 13730 points to 43 players, or an average of 319.3 points per player. That's a big discrepancy and it will only add up over the season.

Most of the gap comes from the pools as we did them at Round 1. A Smash pool awarded a total of 1360 points, while a kart pool only awarded a total of 800 points. However, we can fix this pretty easily by changing a 1v1 smash pool loss to be 10 points instead of 60 and dropping the 2nd FFA as the Savages suggest for time. That would bring a smash pool down to 860 points, still a little more than kart, but much more balanced. The drawback here is that it makes the 1 FFA a little more important, but given that we always take the top 32 on to elimination, it's highly unlikely that someone who does well in the round robin will fail to move on because of losing the FFA.

Alternately, we could leave smash scoring as is, but take the kart scoring back to kart-style 100-80-60-50 places for 1st-4th instead of the smash-style 100-60-30-10 we did at Round 1. If we still ditch the 2nd FFA, this approach would have 1160 points awarded for both kart and smash pools. The drawback here is that it makes a kart loss much less damaging, but given the different dynamics of 4-player kart, that may not be such a bad thing.

Which of these two solutions do you guys think is the best way to proceed? Also, what's the thought on 8-player / 2 cube kart? Acceptable, or to be avoided? I think we should stick with 4-player kart qualifying pools, but I'd like to ensure 8-player / 4 cube for all elims.

What do you guys think?


whaat friendly fire was on the day i couldnt come ugh, i bet the hibbs brothers had a hard time :-D (thats if they teamed up) or any other team with a marth player i suppose

anyway i suggest keep pools...........actually all that eli said is fine, dropping the 2nd ffa is actually the best thing i want

havent listened to the podcast yet since ive got to get ready for school :(
______________________________________

"STD at my house on friday!!!!"
-me

"why would i want your std?"
-limabean

Holder of the 9000th post!!!


keep pools of 4 for kart bring up karts score value and take team attack OFF!!!

second place gangster, johninabox


err well eli, with team attack being ON, that actually doesn't make it like there's two 1v1's going on. there's a lot more focus on team work with it on. think about it, if i choose falco and choose to just spam lasers across fd or something, then i'm not really thinking about what cisco is doing, because i don't have to. i have no fear of hitting him. it's really the same for anyone. with marth, i'll just fsmash everywhere without even thinking about where or what cisco is doing. it WOULDN"T MATTER.

now for instance let's say team attack is on, suddenly laser spamming is no longer a (gay) option, and i go fox. i have to think about what cisco is doing at all times and try to help his combos, keep the second person off of him, and help him recover when he needs it.

there's a LOT more teamwork involved with FF on.


no ff will hurt your partner just go to seperate sides of the stage!


I agree, friendly fire should always be on, BUT, if they are on, then we should totally stick with only neutral stages, these are relatively small with even terrain, and as Lain said, puts an emphasis on team work rather then trying to separate the match into 2 1v1's.


No team Attack just makes it more of an advanced style of play and you still have to keep the second person off you at all times with team attack off.

Also lots of my points on this podcast i didn't really think through cause i was put on the spot so i believe i said this but defiently 8 player 4 cube elimniations

Sorry bout my mic it was really bad and i also had to deal with feed back

I also find it funny that 3 people made posts before 6 in the morning


no team attack

haha!!!


if you guys never want a chance at winning then be my guest. the top players in smash will always win with team attack on or off. it doesn't really matter, but the higher leveled players really are able to take more advantage of the team attack off then noobs.

also, i guarantee you that a four stock match between me and cisco goes as fast if not faster then a 3 stock match between noobs.


I'd also like to mention that I've played very, very few times outside of the Library itself since last season... Honestly, I bet there are more than a few of you that play Smash more than I do nowadays. I pretty much stopped playing it for the most part..

As for the balance issue I think that you should keep Pools, get rid of one FFA, and replace a round of eliminations with FFAs top 2 move on, seeded. I haven't actually thought of it carefully but it seems like a fair compromise that saves some time.


yea and i beat ur falco in suddendeath lol jk

as for turni layoutt eather sollution sounds good as far as points go but i would like to keep the second free for all match in the pools


it dont matter im already to kool!


for the clan battle i think we should have kart and smash rounds, but it should be a cumulative score


also id like to be in the podcast TP2 but i dont have a mic or xphire but eli said we could do it at the library some time but if u dont want to thats ok


Lain has made some interesting points, but I don't think that they're quite accurate. First of all I've won the Smash teams event a couple times in season 2, so it hasn't always been dominated by pros. Secondly, spamming fire with falco or fox while letting your opponent get torn to bits into a strategy I've ever seen employed in 2v2 smash. In fact I've never lost to a team that had 1 player take on 2 players while the other used range as there primary strategy. Finally, forward smashing, while a little overpowered in 2v2 with sword characters isn't unstoppable. I play Marth so I know that if someone does that, they're inviting a counter.

The truth about 2v2 and ffa is that with 4 players on the screen, little tricks become less important than situational awareness. If you miss that one of your opponents threw down a motion sensing mine and you don't see it until you hit it, you've hurt yourself a lot. That sort of thing doesn't happen in 2 player games because you're constantly watching your opponent and you don't need to watch much else since we don't play many of the courses that shift significantly.

Also the semifinal and finals matches with 4 stock 8 minute clocks must have been longer or else you wouldn't have set the clocks for 8 minutes. I wasn't watching any of them, but it seems a little silly to extend the amount of time by more than 100% if you don't plan on playing longer than a normal match.

Because melee is a 2-d game it's hard to fight near your team mate with team attack on because you run the risk of hitting them. If melee was 3-d this wouldn't be as much of a problem, but the game would be too complex and no one would play it. Since you don't want to be near your partner and your opponent doesn't want to be near his partner, you're naturally going to end up fighting 2 1v1s.

To Pwnerer:
The idea of a compromise between FFA and 1v1s in the elims is a pretty good one the only question is where to put those ffas.

Limabean:
Bad Driver and I are planning on recording an episode at the library so maybe if the time works out you could meet us there. I don't know when it will be yet, I'm very busy right now.

"TORTURIS EXUVIAS EUNT"


TP2, you raise fair points but they have no solid basis. Yes, you've won teams in season 2, but that was before a few people decided to get good at smash. And never lost to a team that did that sort of thing? Play me and cisco with team attack off on fd with double falco, let's see how far you get. ;D

We just raised the time just because it's always 8 minute timer. We just did it out of habit, really.

And really, yeah sure I won't doubt that there ARE some 1v1 playing in the 2v2's, but that's only a small part of it. People who actually know what they're doing half the time can utilize teams and decide to run over to help your team mate stop getting chainthrowed, do a weak attack to knock your partner back onto the stage, hold down an opponent for a split second so your opponent can get a quick strong attack in, etc.

Also, I agree with Cisco. The second free for all is a bit tacked on.


nah second ffa is always good for the people who dont win 1v1's! is if was not there then smash would be stacked for 1 clan and the best people would never lose!

this gives me and others a chance to beat you!


oh yea it is 1,000 points = a level right?


yea, and tp2 i should be able to make it whenever it is, i usually dont make plans more than a day in advance so i cant come if u tell me a couple days ahead


ejk, at round one u said that u would figure out how to change my points to this account but u change the name to DELETE limabean so for round 2 should i preregister on this account or wait til i get there


I meant that after the round of pools you eliminate all but 32 players, then make all 32 players do a round of FFAs, top 2 moving on, with the FFAs being seeded by pool performance, and then you're left with 16 players, which, with 8 tvs, maximizes the efficiency of players per TV for 1v1. With 1v1 you had to do two rounds of matches to get to top 16 since there were only 8 tvs, now you only need to do one, and the people who got 1st in their FFAs can play the people who got 2nd. So we all get two FFAs like before, except now one of them is an elimination round, so those who aren't amazing at 1v1 who make it out of pools still have a hope of making it to top8. As for top 3, i.e. money, that's a little rough to balance. The ability gap in the group of players is so large that there's not much that can be done...

For example, a good many of the teams at the aadl, especially with Team attack on, but even with it off, would have a pretty hard time taking me 2 on 1.

We should probably have a few example team matches to show you guys what exactly we're talking about when we say that team attack is a big part of the game, but I don't think at this level (that is, the level at which most players at the AADL play at) it makes too much of a difference, so it makes no difference to me. It's also a scary concept to a lot of bad players so I can see why you guys would want to keep it off.


that sounds good cisco and i can play u with a teammate(maybe Mike S) for a deminstration


Pwner makes some good points and i agree with the format for single melee. I think it is a fair balance and adds randomness.
You also might be able to increase it to 3 stock 4 minute or 3 stock 5 minute


omega- ok what i think is that we should keep the team attack off. This is because their are very few people who know how to play correctly with it on and all the noob stratageys can be overcame easily. Also nobody except team silence can do double falco(and we don't usually) so i don't think thats really a problem. Please only have one ffa next time and the balance between kart and smash does need to be even. Lain i get what you saying in teams but if we have team attack off you guys will run over almost everyone easily and in the past their have never been any undeafetable advanced team strategys so we really don't have to worry about that.


Yawn... see now the way i c it is that whether team attack is on or off the best players should win anyway. but what do i kno im half asleep.


HEY PEOPLE!!!!!! Im Charles. Ok enough about me, i need to tell eli if our tournament (pokemon battle revolution)can keep the scores on aadl gt to. ok? reply A.S.A.P!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Carles (nickname)


Hello Charles. We are hoping to start using the scoring system to run Pokemon and DDR tournaments in time for the next Pokémon tournament. Stay tuned!

Also, stop calling us! =)


lol stop calling us haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


hmmmmmm i want another first place!!!!!


wow. Eli dont bring that up again ok. next time e-mail me instead of puting it where people can see in.


eli will there be any pokemon restrictions and will it be 3v3 or 6v6. Either way my team is unbeatable so everyone else should be aimming for second.


lol in your dreams. thats y they call me charlespokemonmaster!!!!!!!!!!


jw wat is the most experiance in one match people have gotten, mine is 209


i believe you gave yourself the name of charlespokemonmaster.

haha.


self perclamed no a real master!


OH YA TRY ME U CAN TELL EJK MY BRO WON THE WHOLE TOURNAMENT ONE WEEK!!!!!!!!!! AND I DID TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TRY ME ULL LOSE!!!!!!!!


Wow, dude. I don't know who you are, but you need to chill. It's just Pokemon.
---
"OK, next year we're going to change the tournament name from AADL-GT to AADL-GR... "Goat Rodeo!!!" - Eli
5000th comment poster!
[gtlogo:VMC]


Yeah not even getting hit with a blue shell in the final seconds of an elimniation round in kart deserves all caps.


where is eli??!!!??!!??


anoyed at you!

ok my drums got banned that 1 year !!!!!!!

i motion to have a depate to ban this charles person from the blogs/turni!!!!


omega-wanna have a mm. I'm telling you, no matter how good you THINK you are theirs no possible way you know as much as me. Your just a wanna be. Charles i don't even know you but seriously your messing with the wrong guy. My team isn't fully complete but as soon as i hind my emerald there'll be nothin left to say.


you losers. ur wanna beeeeeeeeeeees. u wish u could meat me. Im unstobale. just admit it. im better ok. if u wanna peice of me wait the tournaments. gosh u push overs are hard headed. shin omega is crazy and so is that other person.


johninabox, plus shin and omega are starting to get annoying!


I don't know whether it's the awful spelling and grammar or the fact that this is a fight about pokemon, but either way this is one of the most hilarious things I've ever seen on this forum.

"TORTURIS EXUVIAS EUNT"


I think it's a combination of both, really. I definitely think the all caps reply added some serious humor, too.
---
"OK, next year we're going to change the tournament name from AADL-GT to AADL-GR... "Goat Rodeo!!!" - Eli
5000th comment poster!
[gtlogo:VMC]


omega- we all need a laugh every once and a while. Anyways cisco have you trainned with limabean yet.


you people have no scence at all


you people have no scence at all


you people have no scence at all


naw im just kidding =] u guys always have spunk ill give you that.


Triple post = 3x unnecessary
---
"OK, next year we're going to change the tournament name from AADL-GT to AADL-GR... "Goat Rodeo!!!" - Eli
5000th comment poster!
[gtlogo:VMC]


i bet they both have the same pokymans and cisco and i 'played' today not trained


major tom is 100x unessesary


exacactly he isn't he makes many good points on this forum. What have you done that is nesseasary?


Bad Driver I hope you mean "except he isn't" instead of "exacactly he isn't"
If that's what you mean I agree 100%


huh?


huh?


kk i say charles is gone!

who is with me?


charles you're kinda cute. wanna go out cutie? <3


sure if u do, send me a pick of what u look like. my e-mail is Deadlyone67@hotmail.com


omega-laaaaaaaiiiiiiinnnn. YOU ARE SOOOOOOOOO.....DUUMB. LOL. CHARLES LAIN IS A BOY WITH BLUE HAIR. Man you had me rolling for a min. there lain. Unless of corse your both gay. :(


OMEGA- charles i think it's best if you just stop posting after your last comment.


Yeah i meant except he isnt


Wow, I didn't read this thing for a few days (*sigh* the joys of my Junior year of high school), and I come back, and there is this random guy, "charlespokemonmaster" claiming to be the best at Pokémon, and there are the Roysters fighting with him.

Pokémon is sweet, but c'mon guys, this was got to be the most pointless thing I have ever witnessed on the AADL-GT Blog, this is even more pointless than whatever Monkeyman says, I'm serious.

and Lain, let's keep your sexual preferences out of this blog, and on an online dating site, (I've heard E-harmony does wonders for people with fake blue hair).

Either way, good luck at the Pokémon tourney guys! My bet is that some random nine year old comes in with all Max DV, and EV Pokémon (if you know what those mean, I would say that my thought of you as a Pokémon trainer just rose quite a bit) that haven't been Gamesharked, which reminds me, Eli, do you check for Gamesharked Pokémon? Obviously, no one is going to come in with Pokémon that are unobtainable at this point, or with stats that are out of the normal possible range, but do you check for people that hack the DV's of their Pokémon to achieve best overall performance. You would have to do a hidden power test to check this, no one in the world should have more than one Pokémon that has max DV's and max EV's.

Just pointing that out.


omega- well just about all of my pokemon have good natures max dvs(in two stats) and have been perfectly ev trainned (using all 510). I just gotta hind my emerald so i can migrate them. Its pretty easy to do it but it can be time comsuming if your unlucky in breading ivs. I need to test my skill on some worthy apponents so someone come with iv and ev trainned pokemon or im gonna go through this like a brease.

p.s- fjw they call them ivs now not dvs. Also have you trainned a perfect team yet.


shut up SNORK SNORK.

[watch it charles. -eli]


DV's are exactly the same as IV's, I'm sorry, I stopped playing with Ruby, Sapphire and Emerald, so if they changed the name I wouldn't know about it.

The last time I spent time to train a perfect team (meaning max EV's and DV's [IV's] as high as I could find, as I said, it's almost impossible to find a Pokémon with perfect IV's) was Silver version.

Yeah, I'm outdated.

charlespokemonexpert (I always thought it was charlespokémonmaster, I don't know what a Pokémon expert is, but I was too lazy to read your whole name, either way, sorry about that), that was seriously not library blog appropriate language, Eli is most definitely going to "snork" that.

Another way to check for max stats is to just use one of those max stat charts, but who wants to use that when you can do the hidden power check? ;-)


ok im sorry for using that language =[. its just that shin and omega or one or two of them make me angry. oh ya plus YOU SHOULDN'T ONLY BLAME ME FOR USING LANGUAGE THAT SHIN OMEGA GUY DID IT TO SO DONT ONLY BLAME ME. Man.

Ok to all of you. If u think your the best Pokemon trainer why not prove it to me (and im mostly talking to shin and omega!!!) . Go on Teamspeak, or if you have not downloaded it yet and wanna talk to me go to http://goteamspeak.com/ and download it in the download section, and if you do have teamspeak and wanna talk to me the server address is 192.168.0.3:8767 Thanks!!!!!!


Charles, you'll be lucky if all Eli does is delete your post.

Also, nobody else used the second word that you said (which I am above repeating), so you shouldn't either.
---
"OK, next year we're going to change the tournament name from AADL-GT to AADL-GR... "Goat Rodeo!!!" - Eli
5000th comment poster!
[gtlogo:VMC]


omg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i say we ban charles these last post are a lame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm pretty sure that 192.168.0.3:8767 is a Local Area Network IP address...it means that only people on your network can connect to it and people from "the internets" will just connect to their own router.
I could be wrong about this, but I'm almost certain this is correct.

This blog has turned from smash-bashing to laugh-out-loud sitcom-style comedy.


Yeah, unless you're sitting right on the backbone of the internet,

your IP will never start with 192.x.x.x


Ya i say johninabow (stupid name) and that other idiot shoud be quiet and leave me alone!!!!!!!! agree?


ok server 192.168.0.3:8767 works now


omega- ummm charles i didn't say anythin inappropriate so don't bring me into that situation with you. Also you have no right to be bosting about anything because you haven't earned you right to speak of such. First you must earn your respect to be talking as loud as you are. I for one see you as a nobody not saying that you are. Im not looking down at you but you need to chill a little. It's just pokemon, so we can play in november and then everyone will see. you cool with that.....

p.s- don't get mad over games. It's just some good competition


omega-charles im hoping that 4 worded post wasn't said towards me.:}


charles i'm gonna beatchu up if i see you. ; )


me 2 and im a freshman


omega why wont you just shut up, and leave me alone huh? is it too mucjh to ask for some peice??? I told u " IF YOU WANNA SPEAK TO ME GO ON TEAMSPEAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! so omega dont talk to me or ill report you for being annoying. so u chill. i can't belive u have friends.

Charles


omega- clan US i think we need to smash a certain insect. Show him who the bosses are around here. Eli of course is the president. What do you think guys. Also to everyone next week im getting a wii and 4 for games for $100 bucks. And charles why do i need to speak to you somewhere else when i can just post comments.

P.s- wii da best :)


lol u nooblet

it is JOHNINABOX not johninabow.

and i dont think you can sleep in a fridges cardboard box for 2 years!!!!!!!!

yea thats right i slept in a cardboard box for 2 years wut you gonna do about it!!

thats straight up ballin and hardcore G. so when you can sleep in a fridge box for 2 years and not complain about it then you can make fun of my name!

but for now pokemon hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaahhahhahahahahahahahhahaha! nooooooooooooooooooooobzoooooooooooooooooooor


its all good im not player hate'n on u just you nooblet name


johninabow is the wierdest noob ive ever known (plus omega) =]


Yeah, umm, johninabox has been here since the very beginning, and omega has been here since at least last year, so I think out of all three of them, you're the most n00bish of all of them.

Also, you can't "report" anyone for anything, this blog is ruled by Eli, and what he decides will go. Also also, if you want some PEACE (Spell check is your friend, children), then maybe you should start by not making inflammatory statements.

And finally, it's just Pokemon, dude. Chill out. Seriously.

That is all.

P.S.: Lain's blue hair is soooo hott!!! OMG!
---
"OK, next year we're going to change the tournament name from AADL-GT to AADL-GR... "Goat Rodeo!!!" - Eli
5000th comment poster!
[gtlogo:VMC]


jesh team us is the usiest and the bestest


omega- charles i think it would be smart if you didn't try to make enemies and tryed to make friends instead. these tournaments are soppose to be fun not some meat up for strick enemies and rivals. thats why i had to give up my grudge for fjw. I relized that it was just a game and there is no sense in making enemies for no reason. I this situation im just going to be the bigger man and call a truse. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT.....

NOBODY IS HIGHER THEN USSSSSSSSSS CAUSE WII DA' BEST : )


Major Tom Coveney I think u should shut up. and mind your own bussiness. i dont care how i spell nooblet. So, i dont care if i get reprted. your just a kid. if u were to fight me ill beat u up. Later Loser.


Whatever. Hey omega and shin let be friends insted of enemies? if thats what your tying to say then sure.


SURE THING, JUST STOP DISRESPECTING EVERYONE.


ok? lol